舒尔:是啊,可没那么容易卖出去。我只是简单地把它作为一个关于做一个好人意味着什么的节目。这是唯一的宣传,因为即使我只是在四分钟内总结了整个赛季,即使这样也很难宣传这部剧。高概念推销的许多问题通常是,作者和执行人员都不知道它的走向。你可以猜测,“嗯,我认为它可能会变成这样,或者可能会发生这种情况,或者可能会发生这种情况,”但这是一个非常高的概念,我觉得我欠那些可能购买它的人,坦白地说,对那些必须表演它的演员和编剧来说,我需要知道整季。所以在我们开始工作之前,在我开始宣传之前,我就已经计划好了一切,包括转折。但即便如此,我还是把它定位为“这是一部关于做一个好人意味着什么的剧”。当我们是好的时候我们如何看待自己,而当我们是坏的时候我们如何看待自己?坏到底是什么意思?电视和电影中有很多关于不良行为的蹩脚概念,比如不良行为基本上就是吸毒、酗酒、欺骗女朋友或男朋友之类的,这就是坏的定义。 And I think most people aren't bad that way, or if they are, they're also bad in other ways that are sort of more interesting and so we spent a lot of time coming up with explanations for four different kinds of sort of bad behavior, like Chidi's bad behavior is not a kind of bad behavior that you think about that often. He's so empathetic and so worried about his effect on the universe that he goes all the way back around and is driving everybody nuts. That's more interesting than getting drunk and throwing a rock through a glass window or something. That was how I pitched it. It's still not as simple as funny cops or city hall or something, but it helped to clarify what I wanted the show to be about, which was just how human beings are good and bad in the world, in the modern world.
舒尔:即使是《老友记》(Friends),它有点粘稠,有更多的浪漫和东西,《老友记》中也没有大量的道德。但它又反过来了。至少在戏剧领域,在21世纪初,“火线”是什么?《黑道家族》是什么?整部剧深刻地讲述了社会、制度、社会的钙化等等。当我成为一名职业作家的时候,这就是主流。我在这里的第一份工作是在“办公室”,“办公室”不一定是关于道德的,但它肯定是关于生态系统和社会,以及你的工作如何影响你的个人生活。格雷格·丹尼尔斯(Greg Daniels)曾经描述过他对《办公室》(the Office)的持久印象,那是一个混凝土停车场,里面有小朵小花,像蒲公英一样,从裂缝里探出来。这部剧讲述的是那些小花,讲述的是你能在一个荒凉、消毒的宇宙中找到的希望的微光。这就是我在这里开始的方式,我喜欢这样的世界观。 I think it's fun and I watched “Seinfeld” like everybody else but I never was passionate about it. It was like a little puzzle, every episode was a little puzzle and once you solved the puzzle, there wasn't really anything to grab onto. I prefer to watch other shows. I'll happily watch episodes of the “Simpsons” even in reruns more than “Seinfeld” because the “Simpsons” had this kind of beating heart at the center of it that I don't think “Seinfeld” had.
这和《好地方》非常不同,因为这部剧的高度概念要求我了解整季,所以我不知道人们是否会喜欢这部剧,但我很确定我不会遇到《公园与游憩》那样的问题,因为我们不是在猜测,我们知道全部。如果人们拒绝了整个计划,他们拒绝了整个计划,你就无能为力了。但我们知道整件事是什么,我们知道每个人要去哪里。事实上,我们必须非常详细和具体地说明每个人要去哪里,因为整个事情就像一个巨大的整体拼图游戏,如果我们做的任何事情都不符合最后公布的内容,我们就会完蛋,因为人们会说,“这没有意义。”我很害怕。我以前从来没有写过任何你会认为是科幻小说或类型的东西,我咨询了很多人,说:“我走进了什么?陷阱是什么?人们会犯哪些错误?”我非常尊重科幻小说这一类型。我喜欢科幻小说,喜欢科幻小说,喜欢科幻电影和电视节目。 I was a newbie and I felt like if I didn't learn a lot about it, I was going to fall on my face and so before we started shooting Good Place, we knew who everybody was and where everybody was going, so that sort of early critical thumbs down followed by later critical thumbs up, that didn't worry me, there were plenty of other things to worry me. I wasn't lacking for things to be worried about, but that wasn't one of them.
舒尔:我愿意认为这是因为我九岁时看了一集《干杯酒吧》,然后深深地爱上了它。我认为《干杯酒吧》是史上最棒的剧集,我认为山姆·马龙是史上最棒的角色。我认为泰德对山姆·马龙的塑造是有史以来最好的。所以我相信泰德能出演这部剧是因为我看过《干杯酒吧》我这辈子都想为泰德·丹森写歌我认为有些人拥有完美的喜剧技巧。喜剧技巧不仅仅是“你有趣吗?”时机,节奏,所有不同的东西都是成为一个伟大的喜剧演员所必需的。泰德的完美。当我在设计这个展览的时候,我想,“这是我的机会。”这个角色。 Ted's now 60 something and this character requires that kind of person because, in order to sell designer of heaven, you needed someone with some gravitas, someone older, and I sort of thought, “this is probably my only chance. I've never had a chance before, this kind of requires him and so I'm going to take my shot” and it all worked out.
我记得很多年前我在《纽约客》上读过一篇文章,是关于一个人设计了纽约花旗银行大楼。你知道这个故事吗?建筑师设计了花旗银行大楼,它在第64街,在你的脑海中想象一个高跷的摩天大楼。这个家伙,只是为了好玩和有趣的设计,把他的高跷放在两边的中间,这样角落是开放的,悬挂在街道上。架构学生被分配建筑研究去,“等一下,这个建筑是在大风因为不安全,这是构建“和写的建筑师——我忘记了架构师的名字,他是著名的——这个女人,我相信这是一个女人,给他写了一封信,说“这个建筑是容易受到大风”,他写道,“哈哈哈,是的,我知道,似乎这样,但实际上,这就是为什么你错了,因为你没有计算这个"之类的。然后那个人给他回信说"不,我算过这个,你不能算这个"然后他突然说"天啊"我的意思是这座建筑已经建了很多年了。所以他首先想到的是自杀,但没有。他去找大楼的业主,解释了问题,他们开始修理大楼,而与此同时,他就像心脏病发作一样,每天都在失去理智。 While they're fixing the building, a hurricane forms in the Atlantic and starts moving up the eastern seaboard.
舒尔:人们在看网络节目时有不同的期望,我们说的网络节目是指ABC、CBS、NBC和Fox,对吧?人们有不同的期望。观众有不同的期望,制作节目的人有不同的期望,网络本身,高管也有不同的期望。如果你在FX、Netflix或亚马逊上看被认为是喜剧的节目,通常你看的不是喜剧。你在看一个半小时的节目,它有一个特定的基调和一套特定的品质。当我说这不是喜剧节目时,这并不意味着它不能搞笑,这只是意味着他们的主要目标不是搞笑。我在Netflix上看完了《Glow》这部剧。我真的很喜欢,我觉得很棒。但如果你只是做一个非常基本的分析,看看哪个更有趣,是《Glow》还是一些网络电视节目,《初来乍到》,《Glow》会输,这并不是因为《Glow》不有趣,而是因为《Glow》并没有像网络情景喜剧那样有趣。它还有其他目标,而且它非常出色而巧妙地实现了这些目标。 We are all being sort of lied to in a sense by the very old crusty, calcified structures of the tv academy, which literally codified, as a rule, the idea that any show that is a half hour long is a “comedy,” and any show that is an hour long is a drama, which is so dumb, it's hard to even articulate how dumb that is but they made that an actual rule. That's the deal. If your show is a half hour long, it's a comedy. It doesn't matter. It could be about the Holocaust. It's a comedy.
卡尔森:这是一条规则,这是什么意思,这是一条规则?
舒尔:在过去的15年里出现了一种类型的节目,它既不能被归类为戏剧,也不能被归类为喜剧。有些是半小时,有些是一小时,但它们都不是。它们不是只有笑话、笑话、笑话、笑话的喜剧,也不是警察追捕坏人的戏剧,它们介于两者之间。显然,《女子监狱》(Orange is the New Black)就符合这一标准。但事实是,电视节目和电视网开始玩弄这个系统。他们会将《女子监狱》提交为喜剧或剧情片,这取决于他们认为自己获得提名的机会更大,因为,为什么不呢?所以几年前,电视学院出来说,“好吧,这是规则,它是半小时,它是喜剧,如果它是一个小时,它是戏剧,”这让一切变得更糟。比以前糟糕多了。所以当人们观看网络喜剧时,网络喜剧仍然是以笑话为主要内容的喜剧。他们仍然有更广泛的喜剧前提,广泛的喜剧场景,广泛的喜剧表演,诸如此类。 Now, "The Good Place," I would say is edging toward the other thing. We have a lot of jokes, we have classic sitcom scenarios, we have silly jokes and we have, you know, Manny Jacinto plays that character Jianyu/Jason, who is a pretty classic sitcom dumb guy who says sitcom dumb guy things, but there's stuff about morality and ethics and stuff that you would less associate with a network show than with a Netflix show or whatever.